Question and Answer Session 5

This week's discussion was an open-ended question and answer session. The group shared several great resources for braille labelers and tips on learning dot spacing and alignment.

August 29, 2019

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Audio Transcript


Embracing Braille – Q&A Session August

Presented by Vileen Shah

August 29, 2019

Vileen S: Okay, now we start with our open session for questions and answers. And anybody who has a question will please raise your hand.

Elyse H: We have a person in line already. The first person, Jennifer S.

Vileen S: All right, Jennifer.

Jennifer S.: Hi, yes. I was curious about the braille display on a computer, because in previous chats they've discussed that. Is that something that you can integrate with assisted technology that you already have, such as ZoomText? I have ZoomText and I have the braille key tops on my keyboard and that works well, but I thought as a transition point, or to add to this technology, I might be able to integrate a braille display. But I don't want to completely overhaul what I have, and I also want to keep the cost down. So, I'm wondering if that's possible.

Vileen S: All right. Let me answer this question as much as I know. I'm not really a techy so I'm not so great in technical issues, but I'll try my best as much as I know and then invite other people to answer your questions as well.

According to me, a braille display will certainly be an addition to all the accessories you are using, and it should help you to read things in braille. So, if at all, I'm not a ZoomText user, my friend, so I wouldn't know exactly, I wouldn't know, but if the ZoomText cannot really communicate well with you, something that's not clear to you, then you can feel your braille display and see what it is telling. I'm saying this because that's what I do when JAWS says something that I don't understand, there are certain similar words or letters, then I feel it on the braille display. So, that's not much that I use it.

So, yes, number one, you can certainly integrate a braille display with all the other technology you're using, including the ZoomText and other things you mentioned, and it may have a little more benefit. I do not personally see a great benefit with that. And particularly if you're a ZoomText user, you don't have the problem that I encounter such as the difference between the letters T and D and letter B and C and all that. When I hear, I find them similar, but when I feel on braille display, I can see the difference.

That's my view. Let's take other people's answers, comments, observations. Please raise your hand if you have anything to say about the braille display, particularly in integration with the ZoomText, and of course anything more than anybody would like to tell.

Jennifer S.: Thank you.

Vileen S: Welcome.

Elyse H: Denise, you have your hand up. Would you like to comment on the braille display?

Denise: I had my hand up for a different answer, because I don't do the braille display myself.

Elyse H: No problem. Hold on to that thought, we'll come back. Susan Browning, do you have something to add to this discussion? This question?

Susan B.: No.

Elyse H: Okay, hold onto that. Kelly, you're next in line.

Kelly: Yeah, I just wanted to comment about the braille display question. I agree with what Vileen said as far as integrating it. I don't use ZoomText myself, I'm a screen reader user so I use JAWS or NVDA or whatever I have. But I like having both speech and braille, so I can either listen to something being read out with the voice or I'll also use the braille display to read certain things.

I especially find it useful for doing things like when you're writing documents you can get the proper spelling of words and that sort of thing, I find that's where speech can be a bit lacking in that regard. Let's see, in fact I remember when I was in school I actually used a braille display when I was in grade 11 and 12, that's all I had on the computer I was using, no speech or anything, and I found it very beneficial for things like improving my spelling.

Vileen S: Great, thank you.

Kelly: A little on the expensive side of course, but it's, I think, well worth having.

Jennifer S.: May I ask where would be some places to purchase a braille display to integrate on a computer?

Kelly: There's lots of places you can get them from, there's the HumanWare, HIMS is another one.

Jennifer S.: How do you spell the HIMS?

Kelly: H-I-M-S, hotel, India, Mike, Sierra, in phonetics. So there's lots of companies that have them. There's actually a book that came out a couple years ago, I think it's still available from Mosen [crosstalk] something, at,, and I can't remember the name of it offhand but I can get it though and let you know. But it talks about the refreshable braille displays. If you want, I can quickly have a look here and let you know because I do have it on my-

Jennifer S.: Okay, only if it's not too difficult to find. You gave me several places to start researching it.

Kelly: Yeah, it'd be available in a digital format like an eBook form. But I found it to be quite informative. Actually I'm just looking for it right now. Let's see.

Jennifer S.: You know, I don't really read eBooks anymore.

Kelly: It's called Braille On Display by Jackie Brown.

Vileen S: You know the copyright file by chance? How old it is?

Kelly: Not off hand, but I know I got it a couple years ago.

Vileen S: Okay. One more thing, we have several hands raised so I'll be really brief, one more thing I would like to add here.

Jennifer if you type the word “braille display” in the Google search you will come across a number of sources that supply braille display, but one important thing I may want to add before we allow others to ask or add, that it's almost confirmed but not 100%, but pretty much that the National Library Service... Are you in the United States, Jennifer?

Jennifer S.: Yes, in Indiana.

Vileen S: Okay, then it applies to you, not to Canada. I'm sorry for my Canadian friends, NLS is going to supply a small braille display, I think 20 cells. So if you don't want to spend your money and wait a little bit, maybe that's the way to get the equipment you need without spending money.

Jennifer S.: Who's going to do that?

Vileen S: National Library Service.

Jennifer S.: Oh, the NLS?

Vileen S: NLS, one who provides DTB machine will also provide a braille display for every consumer, every client.

Jennifer S.: Oh terrific. And when are they planning to do that, Vileen, do you know?

Vileen S: I don't know, that's what I'm saying. It's almost confirmed but not 100%.

Jennifer S.: Okay.

Vileen S: I'm not too sure about the date, but first of all our concern is are they really going to supply? And that's one of the things, you may want to call NLS and somebody may give you the authentic information from that service and you can weigh it accordingly, okay?

Jennifer S.: Okay. Thank you for telling me Vileen.

Vileen S: Let's listen to others because my computer said there was seven hands raised. Once again, I may want to specify that to raise your hands only if you have something to add or share about the braille display, or if you have an additional question about the braille display. Other questions we will certainly take but after the issue is over. Okay, next one.

Elyse H: Okay, Beth, your hand is raised. Did you have something to add about the braille display?

Beth: Yeah.

Vileen S: Sure.

Beth: I have a braille display, it's not a refreshable, it's the QBraille XL and I got it from HIMS, and they're really good about... I got a new iPhone, so I have to tell him about connecting it to the iPhone. But my thing is knowing how to download books from BARD that are in braille because one guy, I don't know what the name is, Jim, or what his name is, but I really haven't had experience with that and I want to be able to read books with that too in braille.

So I don't know if anybody knows about the QBraille, you get it from HIMS and it's quite new. I use it for taking notes in church. I did get information on it and I need to study it because I've only had it for a short time so I need to kind of still learn how to use it. So I was wondering if anybody knows about that one. QBraille XL, I think it's 360.

Vileen S: Let's see if anybody knows.

Beth: Yeah.

Vileen S: Okay, we'll see if somebody can share that information. I'll be happy to.

Elyse H: Okay, this person has their hand up, their number starts 734.

Vileen S: 734.

Elyse H: 734, what's your name please?

Allison: My name's Allison from Michigan.

Elyse H: Hi Allison, did you have something to add about the braille displays?

Allison: Yes. I used, back when I was in high school, a Braille Lite 2000. Of course braille displays have come along way. For those of you that are looking to go on the internet, because I'm looking to take some Hadley courses, I want to be a ParaPro to a student in our school district that's visually impaired, and I'm certified like you, Vileen, in braille transcribing and proofreading and I'd love to get the ElBraille from Freedom Scientific. Are any of you familiar with that?

Vileen S: Freedom Scientific, of course. I am and I think many people are. Are you planning to buy one from Freedom Scientific?

Allison: Yeah, I'm planning to either get the Lions Club to get it for me or the Commission for the Blind. I don't know yet.

Vileen S: Oh okay. Yeah, so one of them is going to pay for it and then you will have it. Nice. That will work.

Allison: Yeah.

Vileen S: That does touch the issue of the price. Many of our tools or technology equipment have the exorbitant prices, and in that case if you cannot afford you can always contact a local Lions Club or similar organization or your state department. They have different names in different states of the United States.

Allison: Yeah.

Vileen S: Whatever is the department that helps the blind people, that's the one you may want to contact, not necessarily that the department will pay for that, but at least you'll get some response. If they don't pay you may have to go to your church, your local Lions Club, your temple or something, anybody who can help you.

Allison: Yeah, and another thing too that I wanted to add, in last weeks' discussion you talked about braille reading proficiency and you talked about looking at the spacing of the dots. I was always taught the letter Y, some of the braille letters are shapes, it always helps to look at the first dots or the first part of the cell, because that's one and three, they kind of point downward with the letter Y, and then 4, 5, and 6 were kind of to the right. You have to think of the letter Y as like a horseshoe, 1 and 3 are like the first part of the horseshoe, it kind of goes down like an arrow and then the right side of the horseshoe is dots 4, 5, and 6 and it kind of goes down. Does it make sense?

Vileen S: It's a little complicated for me, but we will keep that issue loop ending now and focus on the question asked about the braille display. But good to share, thanks for sharing that.

Allison: Thank you.

Vileen S: Let's take the next question or questions.

Elyse H: Okay, Denise you're unmuted, go ahead.

Denise: Hi there again. My question has to do with braille labeling.

Vileen S: Oh wow, okay.

Denise: I really just wanted to know if anyone was aware of, I purchased a role of labeling tape that is like something you might label a jar or product with, and now I do not know where I purchased it at, and it's like a roll of 100 labels and they're almost a 5” x 2” or 3” index card size, and I was wondering if anyone out there has an idea of where I purchased this from.

Vileen S: You're not talking about a standard braille labeler that Hadley provides, correct?

Denise: It is the product that you label onto, like I'm using a Perkins Brailler, and I tear off one of these little plastic things that is adhesive, and I can braille right onto it. I love these things, and I can braille jars and different products that I have around my home, but I'm not sure where I got these labels from.

Vileen S: All right. Let's see if anybody knows the answer. I do not, I'm sorry about that.

Beth: I purchased a sheet like that from the National Center, the Federation for the Blind. But yeah, I don't buy those anymore, but I do, you said something about index cards, there are plastic index cards that you can braille on and you can't erase that kind of braille and I really love those.

Beth: I'm sure-

Denise: I do have some of those.

Beth: Yeah. But the braille sheets, the labels, they're hard for me to cut and they seem to be hard for a lot of blind people. I have one person from Iowa Department for the Blind, she had one of those braille metal inserts that go in the brailler and I guess she means that I can keep it because she never got it and she quit working there, so I have it. I put the labeling tape in there and then I braille what's on a CD or whatever.

Denise: These particular things are in a roll and they-

Beth: Oh!

Denise: ... tear off like three inches down and I love them. They're embossed where you can rip them, and they're just wonderful. I also have that metal thing too, but I don't really even need that for these, you can just directly put them under the brailler and go to town, pull it out and then stick it on a jar or shampoo or anything, and I just love them. I was just hoping that somebody could tell me where I got them.

Beth: Oh, sorry I must have misunderstood. Those sound good too, I don't know where you-

Denise: They're wonderful. I don't know if I got them at Independent Braille or Braille Superstore or something like that, I don't know. But I purchased it, it wasn't given to me.

Elyse H: Okay, we have a couple other people, see if they can offer some help.

Vileen S: Sure, let's do that.

Elyse H: Allison in Michigan?

Vileen S: Allison.

Allison: Yes, what you can also do is I have a slate and stylus, you can take the roll of DYMO tape and thread it through the holes of the slate and stylus, and each end, the left of the slate and the right end of the slate has a slot, you could put the remaining end once you get to the last hole at the left part of the slate and you just stick the end of the tape in each little slot. Then you can just label your thing with the DYMO tape inside the slate and then take the tape out of the slate and then cut your label with a pair of scissors. Works just fine.

Denise: I'm aware of that, but this is thinner material and it doesn't withstand the heat or the freezer. What I'm talking about is much thinner and it won't pop off at all, and it stays through the shower and everything. I was just like, I got to find these again. They're just so wonderful.

Allison: You can also buy label sheets for your brailler.

Vileen S: Wow, this is a great idea. You can use slate and stylus and make your label. Great.

Allison: Right, you can also use label sheets. Put them in your brailler.

Elyse H: Thank you. Good ideas. Allen, you're next in line.

Allen: From what I've heard, Braille Superstore carries them as well as MaxiAids and I think it's called Braille Printing House for the Blind. Most of those all carry that material. They have the plain sheets that are just a whole sheet and then they have the ones that you're talking about.

Denise: Okay thank you.

Vileen S: Thank you. Yes, that's American Printing House for the Blind, right Allen?

Allen: Yes. That's what I was trying to say.

Annely: I was going to say that Blind Mice Mega Mall has labels. I'm not sure if it's the same ones that she's talking about, there's also a company in Kentucky that's called Specialty Labels and I haven't looked them up in a while, but they have all different kinds of labels and I know they've got labels on rolls too, so maybe those two you can try.

Denise: Thank you.

Vileen S: Did you use them before some time, like a couple years back, whenever? Did you use some from them, Annely?

Annely: From Specialty Labels, yeah. I think they sent me a sample package and they were peel and stick labels, and they were thin. I don't know if they would hold up in the shower, but it's been a while since I've used those. I should contact them again and see if I can get some more.

Vileen S: Would you please? Yeah, why don't you give us more information about that.

Annely: Sure.

Vileen S: Okay? Good. Thank you. Next one. Anyone for labels? Okay. Do we have anybody else Elyse?

Elyse H: We sure do. I think that was Denise's, so are we ready for Susan's question?

Vileen S: All right, Susan Browning, your time to ask a question.

Susan B.: Okay, hi. I'm in Braille Literacy 2, halfway through the last lesson. I was supposed to use a labeler and there were directions on the tape to do that, but I guess I wasn't... I don't know, intimidated to do it for the first time on my own. But anyway, so I have it out and I noticed, my resource I guess would be my husband helping me, although he's never used one. He's fully sighted though. What would be a good resource to figure out how to use it for the very first time? Or is it so simple it's not even worth asking?

Vileen S: You're looking for a resource for a braille labeler?

Susan B.: Well I have a braille labeler. I just haven't used it yet. So as far as the instructions on how to do that.

Vileen S: Okay, and do you need instructions in braille, in audio? What format?

Susan B.: Audio.

Vileen S: Audio, okay. There should be something, I can check. There used to be a cassette and I will have to have that cassette converted into MP3 file so that I can send you an attachment with an email and you can just go to the fast menu and press the enter key. You are using computer, right?

Susan B.: Yes. I usually email you on my phone, would you like me to send you one as a reminder about it?

Vileen S: Of course.

Susan B.: Thank you.

Vileen S: I can assure you that I will forget, so please send one.

Susan B.: Yeah, you have so many students. Thank you.

Vileen S: Yeah. Very good, sure. Anybody... So Susan, that's all you said about the labeler, did you have any other question?

Susan B.: No, I'm good.

Vileen S: Okay, very good. Thank you. Let's take another question then.

Elyse H: Okay, I didn't get their name, but their number starts 720, you're next in line. What's your name please?

Keesha: Hi, I'm Keesha from Colorado.

Elyse H: Hi Keesha.

Vileen S: Hi, how are you?

Keesha: Hi, fine, how are you? I was wondering, especially with some of the UEB contractions, but a lot of the two cell contractions have just a dot, like the punctuation and things like that, how do you tell which dot it is before the next cell? You know, have like dot five or dot four, how do you tell? I'm having a hard time telling that.

Keesha: I think like the parenthesis and it's like, dot-

Vileen S: Yes, okay, very good.

Keesha: I know it's dot 1, 2, 6, but I don't know what the dot is before that, for instance.

Vileen S: Don't worry, I'm here to tell you. Parenthesis is a very good example. Before I answer your question and also get the information or the further contribution from other people, this is a very specific question about writing and reading braille. So for people doing Literacy 1 and 2, just listen to that and store that in your memory if you can, it's good, because you are going to come across this kind of situation.

Let's take the example of parenthesis. First of all, the open parenthesis consists of dots 5, plus 1, 2, 6. I'll first go back, dot 5, and then dots 1, 2, and 6. That is open one, the closed one is dot 4 and dot 3, 4, 5, but I'll mainly discuss the first one. The second is so easy to understand. The first concern is of course to know what these dots are, the single dot. Is it dot 1? Is it dot 4? Is it dot 6? You can use the process of elimination here. Mostly the letters are not used as part of symbols. Open parenthesis is a symbol and therefore dot 1, which makes letter A is eliminated because letters are not combined with other symbols to represent a symbol or punctuation.

That way, dot 1 has been eliminated possibly. Dot 6 is used for the capital sign, so that is also eliminated. And of course dot 3 is an apostrophe, dot 2 is the comma, so those, each one of them has been assigned some task. Dot 1, comma, dot 3, apostrophe, dot 6, capital sign. So now, our choices are between 4 and 5. If it is dot 5, it's a middle dot. Just think of the two columns, two rows in a cell, and the first side or the left side as we call it consists of dot number. Dot numbers are very important, as I remember Allen Kmiotek once emphasized it pretty well, dot numbers are so important to identify any symbol or any braille letter.

On the first row or column you have dots 1, 2, and 3, and the second row dots 4, 5, and 6. Now you need to figure out whether it is a middle dot or top dot by feeling. The next sign in the open parenthesis is dots 1, 2, and 6, it's a 3-dot sign. Open parenthesis consist of 2 cells as you said, and there's 1 single dot before the 3 dot sign so when you feel dot 5 which is a middle dot, you will see that it aligns with the middle dot of the next sign which is dots 1, 2, and 6. So in other words, to make it simple, when you see that dot 5 aligns with dot 2, when you see that the middle dot aligns with the middle dot of the next sign. That gives you, for sure, that gives you an idea for all certainty that this is a middle dot and a middle dot on the right side is dot 5.

That's one way you can verify that this one is not dot 4 but is dot 5. And because it aligns with the middle dot of the next sign, therefore it is a middle dot, it's on the right side.

Again, I may remind all participants here that spacing is very important. Had it been dot 2 you would see a little space between dot 2 and the next side, but since there is very little space between dot 5 and the next side which is dots 1, 2, and 6, it is certainly on the second side or right side of the cell, and therefore it is dot 5 and not 2. Whenever you encounter a situation when you are not sure about the dot number, dot position, then you may want to check two things: one, the alignment, and two, the distance.

If it is on the left side of the cell, then the distance to the next side is little more than usual because the second part, second row, second column of the cell is empty. If it is dot 5 or anything on the right side or second side, then there's less distance. So spacing or the distance between the two letters or two braille symbols is also important to feel, understand, and remember. Okay? This is something you also did this kind of presentation before, and you may find on the website the recording. There's a handout on something called dot alignment and distance, and you may check that or you can email me and I'll send you that handout, okay?

All right. Let's take other people who want to contribute about this one.

Elyse H: Great. Beth, you're next in line. Did you have something to add about dot spacing?

Beth: Actually I was going to ask about the UEB, I noticed the double quotation like you have a dot before the quotation, you don't have that in the EBAE. Now when is that used? I've really never understood when that's used, like the double versus the single.

Vileen S: Open quote and close quotation marks in EBAE and UEB are not very different.

The first thing, remember this. For double quotation in print, the braille has a single cell. For open, dots 2, 3, and 6, and for closing, it's dots 3, 5, and 6. For lower h and lower j as we call. So then for double quotes we have single sign. For a single quote, we have double signs in braille. What are the double signs? It's dots 6 plus 2, 3, 6 to open. And dots 6 plus 3, 5, 6 to close. Now these dots are same, but EBAE was doing it differently. They would put dots 6 and dots 2, 3, 6 to open and to close they would put dots 3, 5, 6 and then dot 3. For closing it's dot 3, okay.

Once again, in old braille system EBAE, we were putting dot 3 after the closing quotation mark. In UEB, we do this before the quotation mark, and I'll repeat that because it's a little confusing.

Beth: Yes.

Vileen S: For opening it is same, dots 6 and 2, 3, 6. For closing in UEB, dot 6 and dots 3, 5, 6. In EBAE dots 3, 5, 6 and then dot 3. But now it is dot 6 and dots 3, 5, 6, and dot 6, single dot comes first.

Beth: Okay. I guess I'm confused when to use the double and when to use the single.

Vileen S: Okay. It is simple, do it the other way around. EBAE, double in print, you use single cell marks and if it is single quote in print, you use double cells symbols. Okay? Got it?

Beth: Right.

Vileen S: Very good.

Beth: If somebody said something, is that the single and then if two people are talking is that double? Is that how you... like, more and more people?

Vileen S: Pretty much.

Beth: Is that when you use... okay. I guess I never knew that in EBAE either.

Vileen S: Yeah, so focus on UEB and if somebody says single, think of using a double cell sign and if somebody says double, think of using a single cell sign, okay?

Beth: Okay.

Vileen S: That's something interesting. Let's see who else has to say anything about this quotation signs in EBAE and UEB.

Elyse H: Okay, Allen, you're next in line.

Vileen S: Yes, Kmiotek.

Allen: Okay, to answer your question when to use, it's usually in a sentence where there's a quotation and there's a quotation within the quotation, so it's a quote within a quotation. So you use the single for the regular quotation but if you've got another quotation inside those quotations, then you use the double. Now when it comes to the open parenthesis, use your slate and stylus, create a full cell, and then right next to it your 5, 2, 3, and 6, and you could do below that full cell, create that same dot, 2 ,3, 6. Then you can feel on the line the difference and below it so you can feel where the column of the first cell is and the column where the second cells are as opposed to it. You can do that to help you feel the differences in the spacing.

Vileen S: Great. Allen has so much of practical experience and his solutions are so practical. That's great that yes, you write it and feel it, you will know the difference. Terrific. Thank you so much, Allen, I'm proud of you. For single and double quotation marks Allen has given us a literal explanation, that is perfect. Actually I knew but I forgot to touch that point, so thank you so much again Allen. Yes, when somebody's saying something and inside somebody's quotation if there is something else to be written in quotation marks, then it's a single quote. Inside the double one is a single quote, and again in braille.

Beth: Oh inside, okay.

Vileen S: Let's say... who is asking this question? Let's say Allen said and then open quote, something, something, and then there's some word that is to be put into quotation marks, that inside the quotation is a single quote, and for braille of course the single quote is double cell sign. And the double quote is the single cell sign. Don't forget that, okay?

Beth: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Vileen S: Let's see who else has anything further to contribute toward this braille symbol.

Elyse H: Sure, there's a number that starts 608. What's your name please?

Rhonda: This is Rhonda, I put my hand up because I'm in Braille Literacy 2.

I would love to... I think it was Susan who had the question about the braille labeling instructions in the lesson, and that's lesson five.

Vileen S: Yes.

Rhonda: I had trouble with that, and I was also afraid I was going to break the labeler. It wasn't easy to move the ring around, and there were a lot of things I don't know yet, and the first thing you were supposed to start on is zero and we don't know zero yet. So I contacted my instructor and my labeler had been sent to me on zero with the A on the bottom just to the right, and there's a notch in the middle of the top of the handle that lines up with the zero and then if you want the A then you just move that slightly to the left and you're not going to break it, but it might go past it so you need to check that it's still lined up with the notch.

For some reason, mine goes really easily one direction but it's harder to make it back up when you're only using, I think, lesson five is only 12 letters that we have. Oh, but the most important thing that I wanted to say, Susan, is when I get to those instructions now and I went through lesson five again so that I would come to the label instructions, I recorded them on my phone so I have them handy. And I've done that for lesson six as well, because there's also some suggestions on how you might use the labeler probably each time, they add something.

Vileen S: Okay. Over?

Rhonda: Over, yeah.

Vileen S: That's fine. Okay, great. You know, I always feel one thing, that every problem has a solution, and as we heard now you can record things on your phone and then refer to it from time to time. So there are multiple ways you can find the solution to any difficulty you encounter. This is a great thought and certainly that helped. Using your labeler is easy if you're able to read each braille letter. It may be a little challenging, a little difficult when you do not know all braille letters.

Also, when you're not able to feel and read the braille letters on the wheel, so it may sometimes be frustrating. However, as I said before, that comes by practice. First time when you feel the braille letters on the wheel, Allen can correct me here, if wheel is the right word or not. So first time when you feel you may find it frustrating because you're not able to read the braille letters. But if you continue to try and try without rubbing your hands, any time when you read braille whether on a plastic sheet or a plastic round wheel or braille papers, never ever rub your hands, never scrub. That doesn't solve your problem. Feel it, feel it gently. Feel it again and again.

If you do not succeed, do not recognize, just move. Just give up. Take time off and then feel again. But continue, do not give up. Take breaks, but do not give up. That will help. Okay? So yes, using labeler is slightly more challenging but it's doable. One thing you may all want to think, if others can do, I can do it. Others are doing, they're making labels, there are hundreds and thousands of blind and visually impaired people who are successfully making braille labels using the same labeler. So if they can do, I can do it. Have that confidence in mind and you shouldn't have much problem. You should be able to do it.

Let's see if Allen Kmiotek, if you have to add something here? You are almost like a cohost here, so your contribution is tremendously important.

Allen: This is Allen.

Vileen S: Yes Allen.

Allen: I'm a little confused about the zero next to the A. If you're talking about the braille labeler, the A, the symbol to the left of it is a raised, solid rectangle. That's your cutting tool indicator and that's only when you want to cut the tape. Now if your wheel doesn't move very well in the opposite direction, it should move easily in both direction, there could be a damaged braille label maker. So you might want to check with your instructor to see if maybe they need to replace that label maker for you. Over.

Vileen S: Great, thank you so much Allen. Now it makes things a little more clear to me when I heard that zero thing, I wasn't quite clear in mind. But now I understand, you're talking about the symbol which is like a slightly oblong, not exactly round, the symbol that is before the letter A on the braille labeler, yes, that is to cut your labels. You know, when you're out there and you press hard it cuts, so the new label, when you're done writing your label and you want to cut that part from the tape, that's the symbol you may want to use. I did not know you call it zero. It's something like zero, yes.

Okay, over. Anybody else about this label thing? There are quite a few hands raised, so please let's see if anybody has anything to do with the labels please.

Elyse H: All right, Allison you're next in line. Did you have something to add?

Allison: This question that I have has to do with the braille cell and listing your symbols after the braille cell. I noticed in the UEB braille now, they use a dot locator. What are the dot numbers for that? Listed before the full cell.

Elyse H: You said what are the dots before the full cell?

Allison: No, what are the dots for the dot locator symbol which is listed before the full cell indicator?

Vileen S: Okay, the dot locator is a new thing in UEB, and the dot locator symbol consists of first all six dots and then if I can grab any book here, I think it's dots 1, 3. But give me a moment and let's see if anybody else has... I would like to verify for sure and then tell. So I'm heading to my library to grab a book, so let's see if somebody else...

Elyse H: Yeah, that's a new one for me. We'll open up the lines, see if we can call on a friend here. Let's see, Beth your hand is up. You have-

Beth: Yeah, I was thinking with what you said about the label makers, mine always had trouble feeding the tape through so probably could there have been a maybe damaged label in there? And another thing, the labels I'm noticing aren't sticking as well. They don't have the good adhesive as they used to.

Elyse H: I agree with you on those. Those stickies don't ever stick so well.

Vileen S: Okay, I'll take that question as well but let me first respond to the dot locator. And I was pretty wrong, I'm so sorry. Sometimes I remember the shapes after reading braille so much. Anyway, explanations are not needed. The dot locator consists of dots 4, 6 and then all six dots. So it's dot 4, 6 because you will feel the distance between the dot 4, 6 which is a second side and the right side of the cell, and then the next side is all six dots, so they are touching. There's no spacing, there's no distance between which means it's not dots 1, 3.

Had it been 1, 3 you would see a distance between the first 1, 3 sign and the 6 dot sign. So once again, the dot locator consists of dots 4, 6 and all 6 dots. Sorry about that.

Okay, yes, sticking thing, I'm pretty certain many people have something to say about that and they have some experience. Yeah, the tape I cut from my labeler sometimes does not stick. Many times my medical bottles, I do that, and it drops down. There are a couple of reasons, one, the tape may be old. The gum, the glue may not be strong enough. And the second reason is the thing on which you put your label. My experience learned that it is good to use this braille label to place it at the bottom part of the bottle so that it doesn't fall down. But that's just my experience.

Elyse H: Annely, you're next in line.

Annely: Yes, I was going to make a comment about the labeler.

Vileen S: Yes.

Annely: When the tape gets cut, and this I've heard from several other people, I haven't experienced it myself, but sometimes when the tape is cut by the machine little pieces of the tape, tiny, tiny pieces get inside there and clog up the machine or prevent the labeler from moving the tape forward or advancing the tape forward is what I want to say, and sometimes you have to take it out and re-feed it back through the labeler which is a pain.

Vileen S: But doable.

Annely: I've also heard of people taking it apart and cleaning their labeler. I don't recommend it because those are really tiny parts and I don't know how to do it myself. But people have done it. Over.

Vileen S: Thank you. Okay, let's see the next one. Good input.

Elyse H: Let's see, Allen you're next in line.

Allen: Yes, I've had three label makers that I've had to replace because those little pieces fall off into the machine itself and it could cause more jams. The other thing is too, if you touched your medicine boxes, your pill boxes that come through, your oils from the fingers get on there and sometimes the labels will not stick well. So if you take some alcohol and a cloth and just clean that area before you put the label on, and make sure your label is at least three or four cells long, because if it's too small they'll pop off automatically. Over.

Vileen S: I thank you everybody for actively participating today, and I wish you all a good week ahead, a good weekend, and see you next Thursday. Bye now.