Braille Reading Proficiency

We discussed the limitations and opportunities you might encounter when it comes to your braille reading proficiency.

August 22, 2019

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Audio Transcript


Embracing Braille – Braille Reading Proficiency

Presented by Vileen Shah

August 22, 2019

Vileen S: All right friends, so today's topic is something interesting. It's about the Braille Reading Proficiency, Limitations and Opportunities. That's the exact title today.

But anyway, we discussed this issue in a piecemeal manner, I mean to say sporadically, or we did cover some parts of the braille reading proficiency. We did also have one session in which two braille readers made a demonstration how well they can read in braille.

So, that was pretty interesting. However, I thought since braille reading is so crucial to our life, it's so essential for us to be able to read and understand and have access to the world of knowledge, that we developed a good braille reading proficiency.

I have prepared a kind of acronym for that. And acronym is so easy to remember. It's car. C-A-R. And each letter stands for something. I'm going to discuss each issue, each aspect of this acronym and how it helps improving your braille reading proficiency. All right? Car stands for C for calm and cool, A for accuracy, and R for reading rapidly.

First of all, if you want to try to read braille, if you want to really read and enjoy braille, if you want to learn how to read braille, you must start staying calm, cool, and composed.

It means you should not have stress. "Oh my God, how am I going to learn braille? How am I going to read it? How am I? What if I make an error?" Nobody's perfect. Unless you make errors, you can never learn. If you are not prepared to make errors, then you can't learn. So, I'm open to making errors and learn from the errors. I treat errors as my teachers. That's fine, don't worry.

But stay calm, stay cool, stay just stress-free when you want to learn braille or practice braille or read braille. Or, it could be at any stage. You may be a beginner learner, how to read braille, or you may be in the process of learning, or you have learned braille pretty well, but you are trying to improve your braille reading proficiency. Under each of these situations, staying calm and cool is a precondition, is a precursor to learning and acquiring braille reading proficiency.

The second one. A for accuracy. Yes, accuracy is extremely important. If you would read wrong, you would understand it wrong, and you will acquire some incorrect information.

So, you don't want to read wrong. And in order to read correct, accurately, you read to develop some special ability to identify dots, to understand the distance, as we discussed before, the distance between dots, and to understand the alignment of dots.

We discussed this issue in one of our sessions, but I will briefly repeat it and please bear with my repetition for those who already learned and understand that.

So, for all of you who belong to any of these groups, I believe the repetition would be beneficial. Once again, you need to understand the distance between dots and the alignment of dots.

So, let's first understand the spacing or distance. As you all know, the six dot braille cell consists of two rows. Three dots in each row. Between these two rows, two lines, whatever you call, of three dots each, there is a kind of spacing. There is a kind of distance between the two rows. And we are talking something minute. And here's where you need to train your fingers.

Remember, we are reading braille using our finger sensitivity, our ability of fingers to read, feel and understand. And for that purpose, it's important that you gently touch the dots, do not rub, and feel the distance. The distance is more important to understand when you compare the distance between two cells. Now, when I say distance between two cells, I mean to say the distance between two braille letters.

Practically, it is not accurate, it is not perfectly appropriate to say distance between two letters, because each braille sign is not a letter. Some of the signs are letters, some of the signs represent the punctuation, and some special symbols. But for a convenience purpose, I may say letters so that you understand it better, that between two letters, between two cells, there is slightly a wider distance.

Which means that if you understand this spacing portion you won't misread, you will not make errors in reading, and you will not read something inaccurately. For instance, dots four, five, six, and letter A, can be easily misunderstood as letter P as in Peter. Braille dots four, five, six, makes one straight row, and then dot one makes another row.

So, this can be understood as dots one, two, three, four, that makes the letter P, but it's not letter P because the distance between dots four, five, six, and dot one, is slightly bigger than actual P in which we are using two rows of the cell. In the first row we are using dots one, two, three, and in the second row we are using dot four.

So, that difference between dots one, two and three on one side, and four on the other side of the same cell, is slightly smaller than the distance, the spacing between dots four, five six and letter A.

Once again, you need to first really feel and understand and be accurate in identifying the braille sign and not mixing them up by just not understanding the spacing situation. I'll give you a couple of examples of people who submit their assignments to me. Since I'm not announcing any name attached to that, I believe I am not breaking any confidentiality.

Say for instance one student sent me assignment number 14 of Braille Literacy Four. Now, those who have not reached the level of Braille Literacy Four, do not have to worry what it could be in all. Just get the basic explanation that I'm providing here.

There is a contraction representing dots four, five, and U, and that represents the word “upon”, dots four, five, and U. This learner wrote dots one, two, and B. He wrote B because he wasn't careful about pressing the dots and he put an extra dot. And dots four, five, he understood as dots one, two, so he thought, "Oh, it's B." No.

Once again, braille is not a system of shapes of letters. Just don't go by shapes. Dots one and two makes letter B, but the shapes of dots four and five is the same as B but it's not B. And that, you can understand only when you understand the spacing and alignment.

By alignment, I may want to repeat, that you may want to compare the dots of the braille symbol or letter with the next letter, how these are aligned.

We will take the same example, dots four and five, and letter U. You will see that dots four, five, dot number four is aligned with dot number one of the letter U. Those who know the letters can understand this better. I mean, the letter U consists of dots one, three, and six, which means dot four is the top-right dot and dot one is top-left.

So, top data aligns ... I'm sorry. Top dot aligns with the top dot. Middle dot aligns with the middle and the bottom dot aligns with the bottom. And that's how dot number four of the sign, dots four, five, and dot number one of the letter U, are aligned in a straight row. So, once you see the alignment and once you understand the spacing, you can read braille accurately. That is the bottom line, to be accurate in your reading.

Once you decide to be stress-free when learning braille, reading braille, practicing braille, and once you develop the accuracy level, your next step is to read rapidly, read fast.

In my reading course that I teach, the title is Everyday Reading in UEB, I oftentimes add one sentence saying that you may want to try reading with a greater speed without sacrificing accuracy. Yes, you want to read fast, but you don't want to sacrifice the accuracy. And doing so will make your reading more joyful and rewarding, a sentence I often use in my feedback for those who are taking the reading course.

I'll repeat that in different words for you to understand; that, if you can read fast, if you can read rapidly, then you may make your braille reading more joyful and more rewarding. You feel so gratified, you feel so happy that you can read pages and pages and you can lots of information. If you are slow in reading sometimes it becomes boring, sometimes it becomes frustrating. You feel that you want to read fast but you are not able to.

Then you just get a little bit of frustration. To get out of the frustration, the best thing is to practice. Of course, my three-word slogan, practice, practice and practice, that will give you speed, that will help you read rapidly, that will help you require more accuracy. And all that is possible if you stay calm and cool.

So that's my CAR. And of course, if you take an analogy with driving a car, there are quite a few similarities. Number one…And those who drove cars in your life ...

I know many of you lost sight later and you were good drivers, so you understand. And those who did not, like I did not. But I have traveled a lot and I know what driving is and what all it entails, you can see the similarities here; that you are driving a car and you want to reach your destination as soon as possible so you want to make a speed, but you don't want to do this under stress because if you drive a car under stress you may probably hurt yourself or somebody else.

Or you may, if you don't make an accident, you may either miss the exit or take a wrong turn because you are so stressed out.

So, number one, you may want to be calm and cool when driving a car. Secondly, you want to drive.

You want to go quick. You want to go fast. But you don't want to make an accident which means you have to maintain a speed. You have to be accurate in driving. You don't want to miss the exits. You don't want to make wrong turns. You want to be accurate.

And of course rapid or fast. You want to go fast as much as you can. But only as much as you can, and only as much as you're allowed to do. You know, there are signs, 80 miles or 60 miles.

That just reminds me something, a sidebar I call, that there was one person who was driving from the United States to Canada. And when he entered the Canadian highway the sign was hundred, which means your speed should not exceed 100. So, he started wondering, "Oh my, how can I drive hundred miles per hour?"

Now, it wasn't hundred miles. Let's not forget, all other countries write their distances in kilometers. So, the sign hundred actually meant 60 miles, because 60 miles make 100 kilometers. With that little humor, going back to braille reading proficiency.

Yes, so it's almost similar to driving. You want to be calm and cool; you want to be accurate in your driving, and still you want to go fast.

Similarly, if you want to develop good Braille reading proficiency you want to be calm and cool, you want to be accurate, and you want to read rapidly.

Now, it's easy to say, the easiest thing in the world is to sermonize, is to give a lecture. And I think I did that. I am aware of several limitations that different individuals face when they learn how to read braille and how to read it with accuracy and speed.

Some of the limitations you may want to accept. Say, for instance, you have limited finger sensitivity. Your fingers do not allow you to read fast. And if you are too slow in reading, you get frustrated. No. We don't want to be frustrated. Once you accept your limitations, you are not frustrated.

"Well, this is how much the nature has given me in my fingers and this is the most I could do." When you do your most, that should be the point of gratification for you. So, if the finger sensitivity is not that great, or if you do not have access to braille materials a lot, you cannot practice a lot, then also that's another limitation.

This is particularly true because in many countries producing braille is so expensive and they do not have enough equipment, enough supply of even paper, so they're not able to produce tons and tons of braille as we do here in the United States. I also do know that many of us live with limited means.

However, if we talk about the opportunities, and the title is Braille Reading Proficiency: Limitations and Opportunities, then the opportunities are plenty in the United States, Canada, and most developed countries.

So going back to that, limitations. You are yet to learn braille, or you are in the process of learning braille, and all my tips and my discussion may not be good as of now and you may feel frustrated. "Oh no, I don't even know how to read braille. What is this all for?" No.

But if you have started learning, this is your future plan, that you may want to read with good accuracy and speed and without having any stress.

Opportunities, of course, if we talk about them, there are plenty of opportunities if you have access to braille materials.

The braille materials, the braille books, the braille textbooks and other reading materials are available in numerous formats. NLS, National Library Service, for the physically handicapped people, as they call it, has tons of materials.

The library contains thousands of volumes in braille and those are, if you could classify them, you find them in fictions, poems, biographies, short stories, articles, essays, and even some catalogs. You can also find some books with recipes.

So, depending on what you want to go for, you have opportunities to learn, you have opportunities to read in braille. I may say that the opportunities are more than one can really use them.

You have all kinds of braille materials available, including technical materials. Those who are interested in reading the technical manuals, they are also available. There are books available in math, music. Yeah, something you had a full session on that.

Yes, there are books for braille music, braille mathematics. Of course, you need to learn special codes for that. And as Linn mentioned, I happened to listen to that recording, that the braille music code is not something to be scared about. It's not a lot you have to learn, but you need to learn the special code.

The Nemeth code allows you to do math in braille, and Elyse can probably tell us more. There is also something called sign language that's based on touch for the deaf-blind people. So, all the different areas and different formats that are available in braille.

And everybody doesn't get the same opportunity of course. Depending on your personal situation, your opportunities are also determined. What type of life you live, where you live, how much your country... I'm saying country because we should think of the whole world.

And sometimes we do have people joining us from other countries. Cyrille from the Philippines normally joins us, and I think we did have a person from Nigeria. All countries do not have that much braille materials available.

Okay, thank you for your patience. I think I said a lot and the lecture was a little longer than I thought, but I hope you found it useful, you found it beneficial. And with that, I will now open this session for questions and answers. Okay? Thank you.

Elyse H: Okay, a person has a hand up. 603. What's your name please?

Jodi: Hello. This is Jodi, and I just wanted to say namaste, and I think your accent is delightful.

Vileen S: Thank you, Jodi. Are you joining first time or have you been here before?

Jodi: No, this is my first time. But I have completed the Braille Literacy Four course and I am working on my speed.

Vileen S: Great. Okay. This is the right time you've joined this session. Welcome.

Jodi: I appreciate the fact that you talk about the spacing between the cells, because that is something that I found difficult when I was taking the course and something that I work. And I like the way you broke down the process into CAR and I will remember that now when I'm reading.

Vileen S: Okay, great. Thank you so much. Okay.

Jodi: Thank you.

Vileen S: Yeah. Okay, let's take the next question.

Elyse H: Great. Cheyenne, you're next in line. Go ahead.

Cheyenne: This is Cheyenne. This is my first time in the group.

Vileen S: Welcome, welcome.

Cheyenne: Thank you.

Vileen S: Yeah.

Cheyenne: I'm actually an advanced braille reader. I've been reading since the fourth grade. I wanted to piggyback on some things.

First about the common code. I always say if you're getting frustrated to put it down for a little bit and take a break and do something else and come back to it later. Also, when you're first learning, start small. I always say practice but do so in small sessions, so that you start building up your endurance for your fingers.

Vileen S: Very good, very true. Yes. Start with small things, yes.

Cheyenne: Yeah. One last thing is I found helpful to make yourself an alphabet or contraction flashcards, so that if you're waiting in line somewhere or on the bus you can read letters and practice with those while you're commuting. That's all from me. Thank you.

Vileen S: Great. Okay, so Cheyenne, yeah, your suggestions are tremendously useful and thank you so much for sharing. Welcome again. You are here first time so, yeah, hopefully you would like to continue.

Elyse H: Wonderful. The next person in line, their phone number starts 850, what's your name please?

Vileen S: Oh, Annely.

Annely: I want to suggest that I recommend that people should, for those that do not get involved in the Spring into Braille reading that Hadley during April and May, because that's where I had done more braille reading to see how many pages I could read. And I think that's where I improved my speed.

Vileen S: Great.

Annely: Number two, when you request books from the talking book library, you got to remember that they still are sending out books in English Braille American Edition, or EBAE.

So, for those who have learned braille with the Unified English Braille code, it might be a bit challenging with the other books.

So, if you request any books, you might want to let them know that you want them in the new code. And I'm assuming that they are now, whatever they're brailling is being done in the new code.

And number three, a suggestion. With the example you gave as dots four, five, six, A, looking like a P, can you change that to maybe a capital sign and an L looking like a number sign? Because in braille you'll never find four, five, six, A, in any kind of reading, because as far as I know there's no contraction or word sign or initial letter word sign that uses the four, five, six, A.

So, that might be confusing for some, but I was thinking that maybe the dot six and the one, two, three, looking like a number sign and not a capital L. Over.

Vileen S: Thank you for checking on me and correcting on me, Annely. And that's where I always learn from the people who are in the group. I am open to learning.

Yes, you are right. Dots four, five, six, A, is a contraction for myself. I have prepared over a thousand personal contractions. I use it for the word appreciate.

But anyway, that's not a great example. Yeah, I use several contractions. Like dots four, five, and A, means agree. Dots four and B means definite, like that.

Annely: Yes I-

Vileen S: I have my own contractions so when I make notes, that's what I used to do when I was doing my college, I used to make notes while listening to the professor and I would record different contractions that I standardized for myself. Okay.

Annely: You bring back memories of my college days. I used to do the same thing, make my own braille shorthand when I took notes in class. Over.

Vileen S: Correct. Perfect. Yeah, perfect, yeah. The number sign, or numeric indicator now they call it, consists of dots three, then four, five and six. And that can be easily mistaken as capital L. Because when you treat dot three as dot six with the capital sign, and on the second row we have dots four, five, six, a straight row, by the shape it's looks like L.

And that's why I say it’s not a system of shapes. Don't go only by shapes. Always think and understand the distance between the two rows of the same cell and between two cells. Once again, the distance, the spacing between two cells is slightly greater than the spacing between two rows of the same cell. Okay? I hope it's clear to all of you.

Those who are beginner learners will know that later, or if you have started learning, at the level of Braille Literacy Two, this is what you want to learn and understand. Thank you, Annely. We can take the next question or comment.

Elyse H: Okay.

Vileen S: Okay.

Elyse H: Here comes somebody. Their number starts 602. What's your name please?

Roderick: Hi, this is Roderick.

Vileen S: Yes, Roderick.

Roderick: Good morning.

Vileen S: Good morning.

Roderick: That was very good, what you said this morning. But every time you refer to the two rows, you mean the two columns, one, two, three, four, five, six?

Vileen S: The two columns, yes.

Roderick: With two rows. The top, middle, and bottom rows. That might confuse some people. I can remember in Braille Literacy One, when I was starting, they would have the full braille cell and a letter L as a number at the pages on the top-right, and on the bottom-right they'd have the regular-

Vileen S: Number.

Roderick: ... numeric indicator and the numbers. At first, before I understood it, I took that as a capital sign and a P, rather than a numeric indicator and a one, meaning that being the first course.

And it took me a while... It wasn't too long into the first course that I began ... Because I already knew about these things from books, from some biographies of Louis Braille that I had read, about the capital indicator and the alphabet.

But I soon learned that this difference between the distance between the three and the six and the numeric indicator, and the four and the numeric indicator, and the one, that being for the lesson ... So, what you were saying about the four, five, six, and the letter A, well, I got it for the number one. You know?

Vileen S: Not really.

Roderick: But the capital-

Vileen S: When you write number one, you write dot three, four, five, six, and the letter A.

Roderick: Right, and I thought it was the dot six and a P.

Vileen S: Right.

Roderick: [crosstalk] until I learned different.

Vileen S: Yeah, correct. Okay. Very good. Once you learned the spacing difference, then you recognized that this is a numeric indicator and the letter A?

Roderick: Right.

Vileen S: Not the capital P. Okay, very good.

Roderick: Right.

Vileen S: Very good. So, instead of saying rows, you said I should say columns?

Roderick: Right.

Vileen S: If that's the common word everybody learned then that's fine, I'll do that. But I think I was still clear when I said about rows. Okay?

Roderick: Yeah.

Vileen S: Yeah.

Roderick: Because the rows are top, middle, and bottom, and the columns are left and right.

Vileen S: Columns are left and right.

Roderick: Or first column, or first side and second side as I've seen it, doesn't have the-

Vileen S: This is how Hadley teaches, yeah, first side and second side. Yeah, the first row and second row, that's how I was taught. Okay.

Roderick: First column and second column.

Vileen S: Second column, okay, thank you. Appreciate it. All right.

Roderick: And-

Vileen S: Yeah?

Roderick: I hope all that's helpful.

Vileen S: Okay, okay. Do that, it is helpful.

Roderick: Over.

Annely: I want to commend Roderick on-

Vileen S: Yes please.

Annely: ... on his knowledge, knowing the first side and the second side and all the other, the braille positioning information. I also... oh now I'm losing my train of thought.

Oh, I know. I was going to say that as one gets into reading braille and reading book material or subject material, whatever they're reading, whatever you're reading, if all of a sudden it doesn't make sense to you following in the context, look at, or feel what you're reading to make sure you're reading it correctly. Because it gets better when you're reading along with context.

And if all of a sudden you think it's a number in the middle of a sentence, check it out carefully. It may be, as Roderick was saying, could be the capital P instead of the number one. So, in context it will make more sense when you're reading, whether it's making sense or not making sense.

Because I'll read braille fast, and I'll think [inaudible] then I think, "Wait a minute, that doesn't sound right in this sentence," and I'll go back and realize what I had misunderstood. So, reading in context gets better with braille recognition. Over.

Vileen S: Oh yes, of course yeah. That makes sense a lot, a lot of sense, Annely. So, when you read and you find that something is wrong, the context doesn't match, or when you read in error, that's where you may want to correct yourself and be more accurate. Okay, thank you, over.

Dennis: This is Dennis.

Elyse H: Oh, Dennis. Go ahead, Dennis.

Dennis: Yes. Yes, okay. I've reached the end of Literacy Two and I'm waiting for the next package to get to me. In the meantime, I've been trying to go online and find some contraction like just [inaudible] knowledge.

And I've been trying to go online and find some sequence for that and I'm having a hard time to find anything. Is there anybody that could give me some suggestion to where it would be easy for me to keep going and make me some little cheat sheet and stuff so I could move forward and keep going, right? Over. Thank you.

Vileen S: Okay, thank you, Dennis. Are you looking for some online listing of contractions?

Dennis: Yes, yes exactly. That's what I'm looking for, yes.

Vileen S: There are a couple of websites that you can try. One of them is BANA, which is Braille Authority of Northern America, and it's part of the International Council on Unified Code. But anyway, BANA is one good resource. And another one is NFB, National Federation of the Blind.

Dennis: Okay.

Vileen S: So, you can or you can go to Or there is one more, National Braille Association,

Dennis: Okay.

Vileen S: You will find listing of contractions there. I'm not too sure how easily accessible these are or how user-friendly these are, so I would like some more feedback on that next time when you talk to us, okay?

Dennis: Even though I'm in Canada, I shouldn't have any problem finding that, right?

Vileen S: Yeah.

Dennis: Maybe? Okay, thank you, thank you. Good work.

Vileen S: Try it and let me know.

Elyse H: Great. The next person's number starts 720. What's your name, please?

Keisha: Hello. I’m Keisha. And I was just wondering why, two things... I guess I'll just ask one question. But is it faster to read uncontracted or contracted braille?

Vileen S: Okay, it's a good question and a very easy answer.

Keisha: Over.

Vileen S: Okay, yeah, the easy answer is contracted braille, because in the contracted braille... Oh, let me ask you this... Say your name again.

Keisha: Keisha.

Vileen S: Okay. Let me ask you this. Yeah. Have you already learned contracted braille? What level of braille learning you are of braille reading?

Keisha: Yes, I know contracted braille.

Vileen S: Okay, great. Okay, good, good, good. Then you can understand it better. In contracted braille, you just write one letter, or two braille signs or letter, and it makes a whole word. A word.

Like Dennis was saying, K, you just write the letter K and it reads the whole word knowledge. So, obviously reading contracted braille is much faster than uncontracted braille. I may personally share my experience, that when I have to read uncontracted braille, I'm a little restless.

I find it sometimes confusing because I'm so used to reading the contracted braille. But everything is good when you are learning. Okay, now my computer says that four people have raised hands so we will move faster. Okay. Let's take the next one.

Elyse H: Okay. Cheyenne, you're next in line. Go ahead.

Cheyenne: All right. Actually, this is not an online resource for the gentleman who wanted a list of contractions, but it is a book by the Braille Superstore and it is in Canada. It is called “Unified Braille Made Easy” and it's-

Vileen S: Wow, that's good.

Cheyenne: Yeah. It has everything in braille. It even goes back to the beginning to alphabet and numbers and then it goes into contractions. So, that might be a good place to start. Over.

Vileen S: Certainly, certainly. Great contribution. Thank you. What is it called, Braille Made Easy?

Cheyenne: It's Unified-

Vileen S: Unified-

Cheyenne: ... Braille Made Easy.

Vileen S: Unified Braille Made Easy. Okay.

Cheyenne: And they have other books too. There's many choices on there. Over.

Vileen S: The title itself will take your stress out, so that's a good thing.

Cheyenne: Yeah.

Vileen S: Thank you. Okay. Next one.

Elyse H: Okay. Next in line, the person's number starts 440. What's your name, please?

Vileen S: 440.

Tammy: Hi. My name is Tammy, from Ohio. And I have actually-

Vileen S: Are you joining first time, by the way? Sorry.

Tammy: No, no.

Vileen S: No. You've been here. Okay.

Tammy: But I've been here about four and I love every one of them. But anyway, I have two apps on my phone and one is called Braille Contractions. It's very simple. It's a great app. Everybody who's doing braille actually should get this app on their phone. It was free.

And it has a search bar and then there's four braille cells, empty cells, and you can either type in a word in the search bar or you can put your braille in those, and it'll tell you what it is. All of the UEB is in there, except for a few of the... I don't know if things like parentheses... Some of those symbols are not in there.

But I just finished Braille Literacy Four in June and it helped me so much. And there's also another app. The only problem with the other app is it doesn't work half the time. But it's through And with that app, you can type in a bar whatever you, you know, type in your words, and then there's a little dropdown box. You can put if you want UEB, if you want the old English Braille, if you want it has [inaudible]. And then you hit the submit button and then the braille symbols will actually pop up. They helped me so, so, so, so much. I would suggest everybody get those two apps.

Vileen S: Well, thank you so much. This is a great resource, particularly for those who have not learned the EBAE code, the old Braille code, and have difficultly reading the books in that EBAE, EBAE. So, this is very helpful. But one question that comes to mind here, when you said the braille symbol pops up, is it something visible? Because you can't feel it on the phone, can you?

Tammy: No. I'm sorry. I'm legally blind, so if I hold my phone close to my eyes, I can do that. So, I don't know if you're totally blind how that would be. Maybe you could get some sort of... I don't know.

Vileen S: Yeah. We would like to hear from somebody who is totally blind. I'm totally blind, but then I'm not a phone user. So, let's see if somebody else is. Allen Kmiotek is a great phone user. If he's here, he can tell us more about it.

Elyse H: And this is Elyse. Can you say the name of the first app you mentioned again please?

Tammy: I think it's Braille Contractions. I mean, I just Googled a search to find that because I was having some difficulty with some of the newer symbols probably a year or two ago. At the top, it says Braille Contractions.

Elyse H: Okay, thank you.

Tammy: Thank you.

Vileen S: Thank you so much. Okay, great. Okay, ladies and gentlemen, we are reaching the end of the session anyway. And I'm glad that all you who shared your experience, the information you had, I appreciate it. I also appreciate that you attended today's session, thank you so much for that.

I wish you all a good week ahead and good weekend and see you next Thursday with your questions. Bye now.