Braille Embossers

This week we talked about the role of braille embossers in promoting braille.

May 23, 2019

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Audio Transcript


Embracing Braille – Braille Embossers

Presented by Vileen Shah

May 23, 2019

Vileen Shah: Hey, it's time to begin. I'm going to talk about embossers. In the meantime, I checked by pressing the 'Insert T' and that tells me the number of participants. We have 31 participants. If anybody is not to attended enough, please bear with me. My intention is to cover all of you. So if you said something, or if you wanted to speak and we could not take a question or concern after this presentation, please do not take any offense. We are all here to support each other and help each other. In fact, they're all here to learn from each other, including myself. I also learn from you.

Today's topic is the role of braille embossers in promoting braille production. The embosser, the word itself needs some clarification. I'm going to cover today what a braille embosser is. I'll also take a look into the history briefly of the braille embossers and then I will elaborate the role they play in promoting braille, and last thing will be affordability. And you know, that's a big question for all of us. Okay?

All right, what a braille embosser is, first of all as I said, the embosser, this word needs some clarification. It's actually a printer, and it is also called a braille printer. And because it's a printer, its job is to print. The basic concept is same as a regular printer. Those who are using computer and a printer and know how to print a document, know well that when you give a command to print a document which is on your screen, the printer, the ink printer I'm talking about, the ink printer prints it. Almost the same concept is used for producing a document in braille, but using a braille printer also called embosser. It is rightly called embosser because it embosses the dots on the paper. To emboss means something like to do create bumps, to create dots, to raise dots. Okay? And therefore, it is also called embosser.

The word embosser is widely used, particularly with a view to differentiating it from the regular printers. So when I say that I'm going to produce a document on my embosser, it means I'm going to produce this document in braille. When I say I'm going to produce a document on my printer, it normally means I'm going to produce an ink document using a regular printer. Hope this basic explanation helps you to understand what a braille embosser is, in general. A braille embosser is a hardware, like any other printer. Then it is connected with your computer, it has the ability to produce documents in braille.

There are similarities and differences, how a document on your screen can be produced in braille. A document on your screen can be produced in ink by just giving a command. It's called print command or for jaws users 'Control P' and when you press 'Control P' or a print command, it produces the document on your papers, which are loaded in your regular printer. In that case it is similar, the braille embosser also does that when you give a command to emboss or print in braille, it does. However, it is also different. It is not just not any document which you have on the screen can be produced into braille. You need to customize, if I can use that word, I'm not sure that there could be some other word. You need to customize your print document to the braille situation, using a braille translator software.

One of the most popular braille translating software are Duxbury Braille Translator, Braille2000 and MegaDots. There may be more, and there are. Mostly, these software are installed into your computer. It means if I want to produce a document in braille, I need to open the document in my computer saved somewhere, using a Duxbury. And when it arrives on the screen, I need to make some necessary changes before I give a command to emboss it in braille. It's normally 'Control T' that translates the print document into braille, and then 'Control E' for Edward, which means emboss. When I do that, it starts embossing. Because then you emboss braille on papers, obviously the pins, the pointed pins which are there in the braille embosser, have to hit hard on the paper. So that bumps, the dots are embossed. Obviously when you hit hard, something is going to make noise. So the braille embossers are noisy.

There are some kind of covers that you can use to reduce the noise level, but you cannot stop making the noise. Therefore, I am not prepared in, but I cannot make a demonstration how it goes but it's so noisy, but just keep that in mind. Going back to the history of braille production, we've covered the issue of braille writer, excuse me. Soon after the braille writers came into use, people also started using other ideas to produce braille on a mass scale. Every technology that came into use in this world, also came to help improve the production of braille. And therefore, some braille presses also started in the early 20th century. One of the most known braille magazines produced by Braille Press was Matilda Ziegler.

Until recently, this magazine was available in braille, but since I think 2009, they stopped producing it in braille. It's available only via email or probably, I'm not sure, I'm not interested. But for nearly 100 years, this braille magazine serve the blind and visually impaired community all over the world by circulating the braille magazines, and including a number of interesting articles. The braille press at that time when the computers weren't there, were producing braille on hard copy braille papers, by using Zinc prints. The zinc plates not print, sorry. That means they would create dots on a metal plate and then pressed that metal plate on paper and that's how they used to create braille and using the electric power, this could be done on a mass scale. That is the history of braille production, before the advent of computer.

When the computer technology came in, that helped a lot and braille production became easier. It also became diversified. Now the mass scale braille production was not just limited to braille presses, but also became available on your desk. I mean to say, that as an individual, you can also have a braille printer on your desk and produce braille on the papers. You can produce one page, you can produce 20 page, 30 page, 100 pages, depending on your need, but you could do it on your own. Before that technology was developed, we all, as a blind person, visually impaired person had to depend on the circulation of information or materials, by the braille presses. There are several different braille presses all over the world, and I'll repeat that word. I'm saying Braille press, like how the printing press was there. P-R-E-S-S, just in case my accent is difficult here. Okay? Alright.

So now, the braille embossers come into different sizes and with the different speeds. A standard speed is measured in, it's called CPS. That is, let me ... yes. Okay. I'm sorry about that. Characters Per second, CPS. How many braille characters, we are talking about letters, we are not talking about words because we use contractions and therefore it is not correct to say letter, but characters. Depending on how fast a braille embosser runs, its speed is measured into CPS, which means, characters per second. There are braille embossers that can produce characters, it's called 10 CPS. 10 characters per second, all right? Much faster than what we could do using our hands on the braille writer.

I think a person with a good speed on a braille writer doing it manually, could probably produce five characters per second or three characters, or some people can do one. Here is a printer that can do, or embosser, that can do 10 characters per second. But that's not the end of the story, people continued to improve this technology. Now you have braille embossers that can produce braille with the real good speed, 800 CPS. 800 characters per second, imagine. Imagine 800 characters, almost a page, per second. In one minute you can produce 60 braille pages. There's of course, an exception, it's produced in some European country, which I forgot.

There is also another fast braille production unit called Braillo, that's produced in Norway and that can produce 400 characters, 300 characters per second. I'm saying two different numbers depending on which one you buy, they give you both options. But the first braille embosser was produced by Enabling Technologies, located in Florida. Gradually they developed this technology. Initially they were able to produce 25 characters per second, now they offer the machines or the embossers that can produce 300 characters per second. With varying speed, they have different and bosses. Normally these embossers are known with the number and the number indicates the speed. So if it is Braille Express 150, which is one of the embossers that Enabling Technologies produces, it means the speed is 150 characters per second.

The higher the speed, the higher is the price. So if I want to buy Juliet Pro 60, that means 60 characters per second. It costs me some $5,000. But if I want to buy Braille Express 150, that will cost me $15,000. I'm talking about some prices that I remembered from the year 2005 or 2006, so these prices maybe different now. But use these prices only as an example, that the higher the speed, the higher is the price. And therefore, Braillo 300 produced in Norway, can cost you some $77,000. Of course not for us, but certainly for the braille production houses. There are quite a few braille production houses, which means kind of braille presses. They do mass production, they produce magazines, books, textbooks in braille. One of them is called American Printing House for the Blind, and in many of the textbooks, Hadley's textbooks, are produced at the American Printing House for the Blind.

The braille embossers, let's talk about the one that you can have on your desk, can produce braille on different sizes of paper. Sizes can be adjusted by the margin set ups. You can produce on a 11 by eight and half the regular print size paper, or 11 by 11 and a half, which is kind of a standard braille size paper. I never encourage, that's my personal view. But I like that print size, eight and a half by 11. And also, long papers like the legal documents and things like that. The sizes can be adjusted also, and often times the quality of dots is determined by the height of dot. Enabling Technologies' braille embossers enjoy a good reputation about the quality of dots. They really do a good job. There's another company called Index Printers in Sweden, and that also has a big market in the world and that also provides braille embossers in different sizes and options. But the quality of dots is not so great according to some views.

Let's not worry so much about the quality of dots, I know many of you are a beginner learners and therefore, just understand the concept, and the role that it plays. Braille embossers obviously allow the mass braille production, and that is how you are able to subscribe to a number of periodicals that the NLS, National Library Service, producers, or the textbooks or the books of interest like fictions, novels. These are produced by the braille production houses. In Canada, the main institution is CNIB, Canadian National Institute for the Blind, and that does a lot for promoting braille. I know we have some participants here from Canada, so they can share more information about that. I do not have much.

All right, so that's briefly the role and of course affordability, I forgot. Oh, I told you the prices? I don't think I have to elaborate on that. As a person, if I had to buy an embosser for $4,000, $5,000, of course you can also buy one for $400, with the lesser speed Braille Blazer produced by Freedom Scientific. But then, the quality of dots is not that good, speed is not that good, all that. Although most blindness products are expensive, and I was discussing this issue with one of the vendors, and the vendor said that, "Yeah, but then you guys don't have so many buyers." I said, "I'm happy that we don't have so many buyers. Because if you have so many buyers, which means there are so many blind people in the community. And we really don't want so many blind people in the community. We are going to always have a less number of buyers."

How to make these products affordable, who can do it? And how these products like braille displays, even braille writers, braille embossers, can be made more popular, can be made available to common braille users. Now lay person who is using braille, I have some ideas that are not in place now, to discuss someday. But I know that it can't be done commercially, that the more buyers, the less is the price. It's like applying the Adam Smith's principle. If the demand increases, the prices go down. Now I'm sorry, I don't want to teach economics here. With that, I would like to conclude today's session. We have nearly 30 minutes, so I'll take your questions.

Elyse Heinrich: Okay. I'll go from the top of the list.

Vileen Shah: Who is asking?

Elyse Heinrich: We have Linn here, I will unmute ...

Vileen Shah: Hi, Linn?

Linn: Hi. I firstly need to apologize because the timing is right when my musical clock is playing. And I'm sorry about that.

Vileen Shah: Okay, no problem. We can bear with it.

Linn: I have been looking to buy an embosser for myself recently. I've been interested to hear what Vileen has to say. I'm looking at a Juliet, which is put out by Humanware, and now they do 120 CPS. They're about $4,000 to $4,500 right now. It's interesting because that's better than it used to be. When I first was looking, these embossers were 50 some pounds, which meant I couldn't even think of trying to move it. They've done a new one now, and the embosser Juliet is 16, one-six pounds. The dots are really very good. I am currently using Columbia ViewPlus, and when Vileen is talking about dot quality, it's about half the price of the Juliet, but the dot quality doesn't begin to compare.

It's kind of flat. There's not applied profile, some of them have sharp dots, but this just doesn't have good quality and yet it's half the price. If you are a comfortable reader, and it isn't a struggle to read something that's not quite as high, it saves a lot of money. Those are just my thoughts. Another thing, if you're thinking well how do they do that plastic stuff? There are lots of print braille books are what they call twin vision books, especially for the little ones, and you can get sticky back paper to go through your embosser and then it brailles on this stuff and then you or a sighted friend can stick it onto the print pages. A company that uses that a lot is Seedlings Braille Books for Children, out of Michigan. And that way, they put this sticky back stuff right on the pages that either a sighted mommy is seeing, a grandma, or if there's a blind mom, they're reading the braille and the little sighted one, is reading the print. Thanks so much for Vileen, over.

Vileen Shah: Thank you Linn, and I would like to add two, three things here. First of all, those who are new to this group, remember Linn is a Hadley staff. She is good in teaching braille music and braille and many things, she is my coworker. And she always comes up with lots of extra input, and lots of stuff that I do not know or I forgot to say. That's pretty much supplementing complementary information. Thank you so much Linn.

Another thing that I would like to share is, that I'm going to post nearly three handouts, and one of them is choosing a braille printer. How you can choose a braille printer depending on your needs and depending on your ... I don't know, how much your pocket can afford. Things like that. You may want to read those things. Okay, next question from whom?

Elyse Heinrich: Yes, we have a hand raised with Darrin. Darrin I'll go ahead and unmute you.

Vileen Shah: Yes Darrin.

Darren: Quick question for you, Idaho Talking Library, which is part of the, they put out a newsletter quarterly. One of the new things that they're offering is to send it to you in braille. So I requested it, I got it in braille, and became on feels like tractor feed paper, which I'm assuming it's what this does. But the thing that's really interesting with it is that it's just pretty much a strict document, there's no rule organization to it, other than page numbers and such. I'm thinking that somebody probably just as you said, brought it up into Word or something like that and converted it and then embossed it. Is there any clues or anything to reading a document or producing a document like this, that I could watch out for in the future?

Vileen Shah: Thank you. It's such a difficult question for me. So let's see if anybody else has information. Anybody else can answer this question?

Linn: Vileen, it's Linn.

Vileen Shah: Yeah, I was thinking of you. Go ahead.

Linn: I think somebody needs to speak to this. Whoever's getting these brailles, someone like you, Darrin would be excellent. Vileen spoke to you about Duxbury and MegaDots, it sounds to me as though they did not either put it through that carefully, but it should be formatted in the same considerate way that a print document would be. With headings and paragraph. So if it isn't, if you can locate who is producing it, you could contact them directly or even your regional librarian. But if others are experiencing this, we should all speak up and maybe we can help it to happen. Even if a volunteer would join them and we say, "Clean it up. Edit it, but really clean it up. Clean up the braille." Keep us posted if you get anywhere with that, over.

Vileen Shah: All right, great. Okay. I can say, I admit my ignorance here. Anybody else who has any experience or information input about this question that Darren asked?

Elyse Heinrich: Okay, let's go down the list. Here is Kelly, I will unmute you Kelly.

Kelly: I don't really have anything to contribute regarding Darren's question because I'm from Canada. But I did want to comment about something related to a Braille transcription software. You had mentioned the various titles like Duxbury and was it Braille 2000, I think it was called? One of them, what I think was MegaDots and as far as I know, that has been discontinued, and I don't know if you get it anymore. There's also a free one that I have been using for some time now from the American Printing House for the Blind, and it's called BrailleBlaster. Which to me, sounds more like it would be a good name for a computer game. But to me that isn't ... I use that one for creating braille files for my orbit reader display.

As I say, it's available for free download. You just have to provide them with your email address. It's, and the accessibility is a pretty good, if you're using a screen reader. It could be maybe a little better in spots, but as I say, I'm quite enjoying using it for transcribing or getting articles, let's say from the web, and putting them into BRF form on my orbit reader. I also did have a braille embosser years ago, called an Emboss, One by VTech. I can't even remember how much that thing weighed, but I worked fairly well and when I was in school, except that we frequently had problems getting the tractor feed paper in properly. You could it, but there were times where it would braille over the creases, where the page would start and that would be quite a time, trying to read all that. So I'm wondering with today's embossers if they've maybe simplified that process?

Vileen Shah: Thank you for sharing, and I'll quickly answer the last thing that you mentioned about tractor feeder. There are embossers now where you can feed single sheets. Now, for those who do not know, the tractor feeders are like a ream of papers connected with each other. The whole, it's not exactly a roll, but the sheets are not cut off, but connected. That's called ...that's why we can use tractor feeder. But now there are many embossers, particularly Index is providing that kind of that you can stack the single sheets and it will produce braille. I would like to take Michelle Boyd's question. Michelle Boyd, right, Michelle?

Michelle: Yes.

Vileen Shah: Yes, go ahead. What's your question?

Michelle: Okay, thank you. My question was if for instance you let's say a pamphlet or a book or newsletter, is the embosser able to do both? I know when you said, when you want it to print, you do 'Control P' like you would with JAWS and then you do 'Control E' for emboss. When you want to just do both, does it allow you to do print as far as being able to visually see it, for those who'd agree to the print for maybe a kid or maybe a loved one as well? Over.

Vileen Shah: Thank you. I'll briefly answer, but also invite other people with answers to that. Yes and no. First of all, when you want to emboss, you need to have a braille embosser of course. But, when you open up document index three, it opens like a print document. Yes, you can print it from the [inaudible 00:34:51]. Or if you have the documents saved as a Word file, and you can bring it in Word and print it. But I think your question as I understood, meant that could that produce in both together. Print and braille, so that the sighted people can also read and blind can also read. There are ways to do it, but not normally. Not every embosser can do it. You have to have additional software and hardware or something like that, that you can produce. You can produce your text into print and braille both. It's doable, but it's not that easy and it's not that normal. Okay? All right, let's see if anybody else can answer. We have a [crosstalk 00:35:45]. Yes?

Linn: Vileen, it's Linn.

Vileen Shah: Yes Linn.

Linn: You know where they used the braille and print type thing is in the classrooms, especially with elementary children, where the sighted teacher wants to see what they're doing and there are a couple of them. I didn't get to braille in print, and so you get print and braille. But normally as Vileen said, you wouldn't do that unless you had a situation like that. And now, the embossers you can set up, if you've got tractor feed paper, with the holes on each side, there's a little menu that comes up. And you can say, I'd like 25 lines per page, 30 characters a line, and that way it sets it up like that, and it does not emboss or braille over the perforated creases. Over.

Vileen Shah: Okay, thank you. Anybody else using a braille embosser can tell us more? Okay, next question.

Elyse Heinrich: Great. Michelle, I'm just going to lower your hand. We have no other hands up at this time.

Vileen Shah: Okay. I can now switch over to general questions. It looks people do not have questions related to braille embosser. If you think of any question related to braille embosser, you can ask next session. The next session is for open question answer session. You are most welcome to ask any braille related question next time as well. Okay, let me take a general question now. Anybody, raise your hand.

Elyse Heinrich: Cinnamon go ahead.

Cinnamon: Hi, I think I'm unmuted, am I?

Elyse Heinrich: Yes.

Cinnamon: There you are.

Vileen Shah: Yeah, I can hear you.

Cinnamon: Okay. I have a braille question maybe somebody can give me idea with as I'm going through. Vileen you know, I'm in the Braille Four, and I'm occasionally forgetting what the short form words are. As I'm going through, and I'm learning, I took that it's lesson six on one, and I'm mixing up which words are which. Is there a way, does anybody have a way that they're remembering these? Or is it just repetitive doing it that you remember them?

Vileen Shah: Did you mean the contractions that you are learning and you forget?

Cinnamon: Yeah, the contractions. The hardest one is like the LL for a little, that one it just blows my mind for some reason.

Vileen Shah: Okay [crosstalk]. Let's see on some people with magnetic hearing. Let me hear others first.

Cinnamon: I have one other thing that might be part of why. Until I was able to finish learning that uncontracted braille, I made my own little cheat sheets like you had mentioned last week of doing. To be able to braille out what I needed to, over the last couple of years. And I only knew a little bit of the uncontracted braille, so I'd mixed uncontracted braille and Braille One and just made my own stuff up as I went along. So now I'm getting confused a lot, so if anybody has any ideas, I'd appreciate it.

Vileen Shah: Good question. Okay. There are three people I think who are ready to answer the question. So let's see, who all are there?

Elyse Heinrich: Sure Bob, I'm going to unmute you. You can ask your comment and question. Little doesn't seem to want to do that. Let's see.

Vileen Shah: So our handshaking is not taking place between Bob and us.

Elyse Heinrich: Yeah. Let's try Michelle, you have a comment to add?

Vileen Shah: Well, let's take quickly, yeah. Anybody, [inaudible 00:39:55] trying to answer Cinnamon's question?

Elyse Heinrich: [inaudible 00:39:58] There you go.

Michelle: I tried to put my hand back down because I think she said what I was going to say that I do. I have a cheat sheet that I kind of had my different contractions, with short form. Kind of like my own directory that I go through, that I just kind of review on a daily basis. That I brailled also, which I think she said she has that, over.

Vileen Shah: Great, yeah. Okay.

Elyse Heinrich: Thank you. Alan has his hand raised.

Vileen Shah: Yes Alan.

Alan: Hi, this is Alan. Can you hear me?

Vileen Shah:Yes.

Elyse Heinrich: Yes, there you are. Go ahead.

Alan: The problem with the word little, just remember that in little, there are two L's and that may help you to remember that word, L L for little. Over.

Vileen Shah: You mean in the spelling, right?

Alan: Yes.

Vileen Shah: In the spelling of the word there are two L's and then again, two L's make the world little. Yes, this is a good idea. Next one? There were three or four people who wanted to answer Cinnamon's question. Yeah.

Linn: This is Linn, I don't know Cinnamon, but sometimes if you have friends or family, you can even do flash cards. Sometimes you help youngsters, but sometimes youngsters love to help you. And so if you have flash cards that say F-R for friend, A-B-V for above, and they can quiz you, that can be kind of a nifty game, to do that. I don't know if you're in that kind of circumstance, but if so, you surely could give it a try. Over.

Vileen Shah: This is Indy the great, Indy.

Cinnamon: Thank you. That's a good idea.

Vileen Shah: Anybody else? So Cinnamon, number one, preparing flash cards. One of the best ideas you may have. Flash card for each contraction. For example, Little, you have two L's written down and below that you can spell the word little. And then another card, you can say the word and dots one, two, three, four, six [inaudible 00:43:18]. And then, maybe someone can give you the cards at random, and you try to recognize and remember what it is. Something like that you can do, or you can also prepare a list of contractions in your computer or in braille, I prefer braille. Every time when you do a new assignment, review all the contractions that you have learned in your list.

Keep building your list as you learn new contractions, keep adding. Each time you may want to refer to the list before preparing your assignments. Okay? Over. Anybody else has a question?

Cinnamon: Thank you Vileen and everybody else.

Vileen Shah: Yes, Alan. So Alan has a question now?

Elyse Heinrich: Yes, go ahead Alan, can you hear us?

Alan: Yes, one of the things I did when I started Braille Lit Four, is I got myself a large index box, and I took the three by five cards. On one of the cards, I would put all the contractions for that lesson in there. On subsequent cards, I would put the rules that would come up, so they would be quickly at your fingertip, and at the top I would indicate what it was. Either short form words or dot five words or so on. I had in a 30 day index card divider, so I could go to that particular lesson, to find what I was looking for. And that can help you also to review as you go forward, to go back and review your symbols and rules quicker. Over.

Vileen Shah: Great, great. You see the experience comes and I would suggest all of you who are learning braille, build on the experience of others, build your skills. This is a great suggestion and great, they are putting. Thank you Alan. Okay. Anybody else who would like to advise Cinnamon and me?

Elyse Heinrich: Yes, we have a hand up. This is a phone number, the last three digits are five, seven, one. I will unmute you. Go ahead.

Dorothy: Hello. This is Dorothy, thank you. I'm sorry y'all, I missed part of this conversation because I got disconnected three times. Anyway, I like what Alan just said, and the only thing I was going to add to that, because I too have finally learned to do that, the method that Alan just mentioned. But what I did wrong y'all was, in my last two study sheets, I finally realized that I had two typos on each card. And if you learn anything wrong, it's much harder to unlearn that, and learn it right. I think those are excellent tools, but they only work as well as I worked them. Over.

Vileen Shah: Great, yeah. So when you are preparing your flashcards or making your list, you really, really don't want to make any error in your list. Because then you will learn wrong and then it's difficult to unlearn. And therefore, I keep saying, in many of my email responses to my learners, you should always focus on accuracy. Accuracy is the soul of learning braille. It's soul, S-O-U-L. Any more comments on the question that was asked?

Elyse Heinrich: I don't see any more hands raised, but if people would like to comment, please do.

Vileen Shah: Yeah, we've got about four more minutes, so I'll welcome one more question.

Elyse Heinrich: Another hand raised from the number five, seven one. Go ahead.

Vileen Shah: That's Dorothy. Yes, Dorothy.

Dorothy: Hi, this is Dorothy again. I missed part of the conversation, but I wanted to ask Vileen. Sometimes, some units such as even a braille writer, can be found ... one friend found mine that I received recently at an auction where he did a bid on it and got it for almost a song. Is there anything like that that ever happens, as regards the embossers? Over.

Vileen Shah: Yes and no. There are two things Dorothy, one, we are not supposed to discuss much about the auction and prices and things available online on EBay, or things like that. But there are people who put their ads in the braille magazines, when they are selling embossers. Or I heard that they are also now putting it on Craigslist and EBay. So it's your choice. But in that ad, oftentimes, they name the price, and then say best offer. Say for instance, I'm selling a braille embosser as an example, okay? am selling it for $2,000, that's the price I'm asking. The asking price. But then I say, best offer, which means if nobody offers $2,000, if somebody comes up with the $1,500, and say that "Well I can pay only $1,500", and there is nobody else, then I can sell it for $1,500. That's the kind of auction. Not exactly, it may not fit, but then it sits sort of that. Okay? Does that answer your question Dorothy?

Dorothy: Yes. May I add to that? I know that for instance, Alan had mentioned that there's an outfit that refurbishes braille writers very cheaply. Is there one that you know of that maybe does that with embossers?

Vileen Shah: Oh, you mean Linn there are refurbished embossers?

Dorothy: Yes.

Vileen Shah: Oh, okay. Okay. Yeah. But as far as I know and Linn can help me here. As far as I know, there are so many refurbish braille writers available, but not braille embossers as many. As far as I understand.

Dorothy: Okay. Thank you.

Elyse Heinrich: Okay. We had a few other hands.

Vileen Shah: We have come to the end of the session but I'll take one question. Yes?

Elyse Heinrich: Okay. This is Kelly. I'll go ahead and unmute you.

Kelly: Oh, thank you. I just a had a I guess a general question about this group. Are these sessions recorded in case we can't be at the meeting, and then listen to it again later or is that not the case now?

Vileen Shah: Yes. Thank you Kelly for bringing this up. Yes, all sessions are recorded, and you will be notified then the recording is available along with additional handouts. Thank you for asking, but that also reminds me one more thing. If anybody has any problem, any objection of being their voice or that question recorded, then please do not ask or do not attend the session. The sessions are recorded by default, and will be available online. Thank you. All right. It looks there more hands raised or, or they raised down their hands? Elyse?

Elyse Heinrich: Yes, we have a hand raised from Allan. Allan I'll unmute you.

Vileen Shah: Okay. Let's listen to this.

Alan: This is Alan, I wanted to mention, because I think ... I'm glad you told how to mute, unmute, raise your hand and everything. But I don't use a computer, I use an iPhone. So if you're using your iPhone, you've got to go over to the right, and for more options and then swipe right to raise your hand. Now the other thing is for Bob, which I think he left the room, mentioned how to write your questions. In case you can't get through to speak, you can actually write the question, but I don't know how to do that. Over.

Vileen Shah: Thank you so much. You are such a valuable participant Alan. You always have very helpful input, appreciate it. Those who are iPhone users, please take Alan's step, and I'll request him to repeat it next time as well. So if there are new participants, they will learn. I think they can go to open tract, what is that called? Box. They can type their question, if they cannot ask. Is that right Elyse? How they can ask a question by typing.

Elyse Heinrich: Yes. In the Zoom platform, there's a chat box. If they can navigate to chat, there's an edit box, which they can add in. And it would go to everyone, also the host. So myself and Vileen would be able to see it, and we can also save the chat for after the call and archive that at as well.

Vileen Shah: Correct, yes. Okay. Thank you so much. Two people have raised their hand, I'll request them ... Oh by the way, before I finish that, sometime JAWS announces how many people have raised their hand. Sometimes JAWS announces who has raised hand, and sometimes doesn't. Elyse is sighted and she is a Hadley staff. She's helping us, and she is a cohost, so she'll be with us every time. Thank you so much Elyse for helping, we will continue to do that and that how we were running this session today.

Two people who raised their hand, I request you to keep your questions or comments for the next session, which is an open question answer session on May 30th. Okay, with that, I would like to conclude today's session.